Jeez Louise,
Robert Howes is an intelligent and wise man.
Yeah, I want to be part of the process, as well (more at water than oil).
Oil's well that ends.
Ronald Rayguns: Well?
Yup?
WSM writes (according to Robert Howes): "No social order ever disappears before all the productive forces for which there is room is developed. New, higher relations of production never appear before the material forces have matured in the womb of the old society".
Mike Morin responds: Rubbish, what about the instance where a band of agriculturalists raid a hunter-gatherer tribe who does not know how to use the land for crops and/or livestock. Are you going to tell us that the diffusion of agriculture was solely a peaceful process and that as long as there has been land suitable for agriculture, there has been agriculture?
Are you going to contend that the earliest and early agriculturalists (or any agricultural "civilization" for that matter) were expert stewards of their land and didn't despoil it prematurely before moving on to other fields and pastures?
***********************
Capitalism will persist, not because there is room for further productive developments. If that were the reason, then Capitalism would be dead. Capitalism will persist as barbarism as long as there is competitive advantage for the Capitalists and resources and people to exploit, kill, and degrade.
The material conditions of the planet have matured way past peak and are in some phase of decline, the particular situation for any watershed being unique. Slash and burn the Amazon? Irrigate the deserts? Yeah, right...
Alan, don't you wish that you had the attention of the whole world? I feel frustrated that my efforts are going unheard and unheeded? Do you?
Puppetry (disingenuous manipulation) has existed, even before the advent of man. Look at the venus-fly-trap as an example of life that probably predates human life (by about 3 days, if I trust Phil Collins ;-) ). That should be no big revelation. Capitalists manipulate the media, the militaries, the magistrates, the legislators, the educational systems. Big deal, that's no revelation. Anti-Capitalists (is that the same as Socialist?) do the same to whatever extent they can, given the fact that Capitalists have more of a history of controlling the resources and to date in the USA still do...
One thing I do believe is that Robert, Alan, and I are honest people. (Omitting the mention of others should not be interpreted as me casting doubt on their honesty).
Robert, certainly you are being facetious about making history? Whose history book do you want to be included in? Are they writing history as we write? Who is doing that? If so, how many different people are doing that? Are they writing about Obama signing stem-cell research legislation, "Chinese" vessels "harassing" the United States Navy, Obama proclaiming that he will negotiate with "moderate" leaders of the Taliban, or that some people still judge others by the color of their hair? Whose versions will gain dominant publication and circulation and where? Will any of that matter? Why or why not?
Personally, I don't give a hoot about history, all I care about is the future and what I can do to influence it towards an equitable, humane, peaceful, sustainable one, particularly for the youth and children.
Robert, again you are being sarcastic when you speak confidently about "developing an enclave of moneyless production, distribution, and consumption (and waste recycling)."?
If you are being serious, and honestly believe that you can do that, then the conditions in Wales must be so radically different than they are anywhere in the USA, that I can't even imagine it.
But, your point is, I surmise, that such a condition will magically coalesce all over the planet once we have reached some critical juncture in history, when. 51% of the world votes for WSM Socialism.
Is the knowledge, and willing and able workforce, really there in India, in Wales, or anywhere for us all to just pick ourselves up from our bootstraps, locally, and worldwide to realize this magic transition to food relocalization, and all these other groovy things?
Correction Robert, the logical extension of barter is robbery, then money and slavery, then money and feudalism, then money and Mercantilism, then money and Capitalism. Socialism is as much an extension of the heart as it of the mind. Certainly, if we ever do reach a peaceful, socialist world, it will be money and socialism before it has any chance of ever evolving to a moneyless socialism.
That business of socialism and a dual system happening that you discuss, you are really mistaking for Welfare-state Capitalism. And the BS about eco-friendly products is mostly myth brought to you by slick target marketers.
How about starting with an "anti-war mobilization"?
Peace,
Mike
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